Sex Positive Me

E40: Building blocks to a Healthy Sexuality

Listen to “E40 – Building blocks to a Healthy Sexuality” on Spreaker.

September is #SexualHealthAwarnessmonth, tonight we are talking with The MamaSutra, Lanae St. John! We will be talking about how to build a healthy sexuality. Her adventures with her children, why she is my role model to being a sex positive parent. Why it is important to normalize the conversation about sexuality between parents and children.

Lanae St. John, DHS, ACS, is board certified sexologist, sexuality educator, and writer. She received her Doctorate in Human Sexuality from the Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality, where she focused on Child and Adolescent Sexuality. She develops curriculum, teaches classes, and works with clients to normalize conversations about sexuality between parents and children.

She believes that we must help adults discover a positive outlook on sexuality before they can impart wisdom to the young people in their lives. By teaching parents to nurture the budding sexuality of their children in ways that foster self-respect and acceptance for the totality of their personhood, she helps them raise children who become empowered, beautiful, strong, sexually healthy adults. She often incorporates pop culture, current advertising, music, and movie references into her teachings.

Dr. Lanae is the proud mother of two daughters, aged 15 and 13, with whom she has plenty of practice honing her communication skills and developing techniques to talk about sex that work. She actively embodies her ideas about honesty with sensitivity, empowerment, freedom of expression, and body-positivity with her kids. She blogs about sex, parenting, relationships, and consent at www.themamasutra.net.

You can find more information and how to contact Lanae St. John via https://about.me/lanaest.john

Instagram: @themamasutra
Twitter: @themamasutra
Facebook: TheMamaSutra



John
Welcome to living a sex positive life where we can guarantee the topic will be about sex. We’ll talk about the good and the bad, the health and healing benefits, the adventures, the relationships, as well as the crimes and the tragedies. Our mission is to educate, entertain, and just talk about that touchy subject that affects us all sex. Now, here’s your host, Angelique Luna.

Angelique
Good evening, everyone. Welcome. I am joined tonight with my husband and co host, john c. Luna.

John
Hello, everyone.

Angelique
And tonight’s guest, she’s actually my role model for sex positive parenting I’ve been I’ve known her for five years, six years have known for a few years there. But it is the wonderful amazing the mama sutra le ne St. JOHN sees a de su d. h. SHCS is a Board Certified sexologist, sexuality educator and writer. She received her doctorate in human sexuality from the Institute for the advanced study of human sexuality where she focused on Child and Adolescent sexuality. She develops curriculum, teaches classes and works with clients to normalize conversations about sexuality between parents and children. Welcome to the show. I know there’s more to your bio, but I’d rather feel like he should explain you because I love how you parent your kids and sometimes even use those techniques on my daughter.

Lanae St.John
Oh, thank you so much. So that’s really flattering to hear that, that you look up how I deal with my kids. And sometimes it’s crazy sometimes it’s fun. It’s a it’s always challenging, but yeah, yeah. I’ve got a pretty good relationship with them now. Oh, as a result, I think.

Angelique
Oh, definitely.

Lanae St.John
Thank you.

Angelique
Yeah. It’s like people need to follow your consent journey with your kids. When they start yelling consent to each other. I’m like, Oh, my God, that’s priceless.

Lanae St.John
So yeah, so what Angelique is talking about is that, you know, I’ve I’ve been

Dealing with my kids and teaching them about consent since they were really, really young. And one of the stories that I blogged about was about how one of the early lessons had to do with tickling. You know which example I’m thinking of, right?

Angelique
Yes.

Lanae St.John
Yeah. So, in tickling my kids, you know, when they were really little, we would tumble around on the floor and wrestle and tickle and, and I had this sort of flash one moment where I was over, you know, my youngest, I think it was and she was on her back, and I’m tickling, tickling, tickling. And, you know, there’s I could see myself in that moment as the child and having someone bigger than me over me tickling me and me wanting to have them stop, but not really knowing how to how to communicate that when I’m in the midst of, you know, practically needing to pee because I’m being tickled so viciously. So I sort of had this moment where I stopped what I was doing, and I said, you know, if it’s too much, if I tickle you is too much, I want you to say I’m going to just welcome you to say, stop whenever you want me to stop, and I’ll stop, no questions asked. I’m not going to, you know, pout or anything. I’m just going to stop. And I said, let’s try it. And so we resumed tickling. And as soon as she got to the point of wanting me to stop, she said, Stop. And I froze. It was kind of a game of freeze tag at that moment, I froze. And you just kind of looked at him blinked with those big baby eyes. And she kind of squinted them back together and grinned, and she said, Go resume tickling. But that was that was kind of the first lesson in in one of the first lessons at least in in consent, and there was another moment where my mom came to town with my sister and with my sister, she had her daughter and I hadn’t seen my niece for months. And, you know, I she came in the house, my niece she was like, probably 18 months old, if that about that, and I crouched down to her level, and I put my arms out and I said, Oh, come here and give me a hug. And she sort of leaned into mom and grabbed mom’s leg and didn’t really indicate that she wanted to come to me. And so I said, Alright, that’s okay. When you’re ready for a hug, I’m here and I’ll give you a hug. But my mom, you know, Grandma said, Oh, just grab her and give her a hug. It was was really in that moment where I saw, you know, pre verbal child’s not able to say, you know, I don’t know you really, I don’t recognize you or right now I’m not comfortable giving you a hug. And it was up to me to be the adult and say, okay, that’s fine. You know, and I said, Well, mom, she’s very clearly giving me a sign that she’s not comfortable giving me a hug. And so I’m just going to let her come to me when when she wants to and of course, you know, a couple, I don’t remember how long it was half an hour an hour or so later, she’s in my lap and she’s, you know, letting me read a book. So, it’s, um, it’s these kind of moments where, you know, you kind of have to take the cue of the child as well and see what they’re comfortable with. And sometimes they’re not comfortable to touch, and that’s totally fine, should be fine. Even as an adult, if somebody’s not comfortable with touch. People

John
Gives them a sense of control, which I know a lot of us growing up were told, you know, hug this person and don’t embarrass me, you know, and then you kind of kind of felt guilty if you didn’t,

Lanae St.John
Yeah, yeah and you think of all the times to where we, without our kids consent, you know, grab them and help them brush their teeth or brush their hair and, and, you know, there are certainly lots of instances where parents do that and it’s not a malicious thing. It’s not a hurtful thing. But, you know, kids, kids, do learn about what kind of autonomy what kind of control they have over their own body at at some point, you know, it makes sense to sit down with a kid and said, Hey, you know, I realize I’ve been doing this and I really want you to know that your body is your body and I’m here to support you and in being able to say, No, or, you know, expressing whatever boundaries they may want to express.

Angelique
Yeah, definitely and it’s great because I often use the tickling example, in a lot of my workshops, when I’m talking to parents and even adults about consent, you know, that’s how young you, you know, raise your kids to talk about it. But even like in a couple of your blog posts and social medias is how your girls turn around and they’re like, I didn’t give consent and they throw the consent flag like flag football, I’m like what the heck!

John
which our daughter has learned to

Angelique
Yeah.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, actually, that is, you know, I’ll hear them. I’ll share them notes as the kind of the sibling bickering that they’ll do. And I’ll be in the other room and I’ll hear no consent and then most the time, they’ll slow down or stop. But it’s nice to hear that they can say, you know, I don’t consent to this. Leave me alone.

Angelique
That is awesome. There is just like so a lot of your workshops that you do, is it mostly for parents? Or is it adults? How do you do that? Because I know you’ve been really busy. Even starting teaching at a local college there in San Francisco?

Lanae St.John
Yeah, actually, I took a position as a human sexuality instructor. It’s like a basic human sexuality class, but it’s teaching college level kids. And it’s, it’s really been a wonderful position. I’m having a lot of fun. I tell lots of stories, anecdotes. You know, just yesterday, we were talking about female anatomy because the semester has just started. So we’re talking about the anatomy of vulva owners. You know, I showed a video and it was like it was Betty Dotson’s video about the internal clitoris. At the

Angelique
Yes and I know that one

Lanae St.John
Yeah, it’s great video and at the end of the video, one of the students raised their hand It was a male student. And he expressed surprise that the clitoris can get erect and he wanted to have a deeper conversation about that and I said, you know, I sort of what’s the word?

I was wondering aloud basically, if the reason why most people don’t understand that the clitoris is can get erect. It’s because lots of times when people start to get busy, they’ll go right for the vulva, right? Mm hmm. So when they want to get busy when I want to have sex, you know, instead of you know, I don’t know they’ll maybe they’ll start with kissing but then immediate The hands go to the vulva. And I said you know you would do your partner’s so much pleasure. You know, if you just started from the outside in, you know work your way you know you could start teasing the arms and like feeling stroking you can use firm touch, light, touch, feathery touch, you know, whatever, you can start with the toes, you know, there’s start from the outside and work your way in. And eventually that physiological arousal is going to, you know, you might actually get your partner to start to beg you to touch but if you have a hold off and work your way up to that point, then it’s you know, your partner’s gonna thank you for that. I imagine your partner would thank you for that.

Angelique
Oh, yes, the mind blowing sex. That’s how it starts there. Look for the things that start the fore play either through the brain or touch you know, I think it’s a lot of people just kind of miss that part A lot of times

Lanae St.John
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s easy to, you know, immediately start going for the vulva, put your hand down the person’s pants or whatever, but it it. There are other strategies that can be a lot more exciting and, and I think, you know, I have a lot of football players that sit in that class and they usually kind of, there’s a little chatter that happens between them during class. But when I was talking about this, nobody was talking

John
this is the important stuff.

Lanae St.John
Exactly. So that was something where nobody was nobody was talking out of turn and that in that portion of the lecture, but yeah, it’s I’m teaching this the college students has been fun. A lot of the people that I talked to, though, are parents, parents, either new moms or couples who are, you know, learning how to talk to their teenagers about dating and relationships and love one of the work shops I had was was just that it was talking about dating and relationships and, you know, we get hung up, I think on talking about sex and worrying about talking about the right thing or or saying too much. But really, a lot of what we’re doing is role modeling and so how are we talking about relationships and dating with our kids? You know, I had, I’ve had lots of conversations. So when I went through my divorce, I had conversations with my daughters about about dating. And my oldest came up with a list of when I’m drawing a blank on it now, I wrote a blog post about it, but it was basically, you know, the top 10 I think it was. What was it? It was the things I learned from my mom’s failed dating relationships.

Angelique
Yes, I remember that one, which I found kind of interesting because I think she was only like 13 at a time when she came up with that list.

Lanae St.John
She may have been let’s see, she’s Yeah. Now so it might have been longer Actually, it’s it was longer ago because it wasn’t. I wasn’t dating my current partner. I’ve been him with him now for four years. So it was, yeah, she might have been nine.

Angelique
Yeah,

Lanae St.John
when she came up with that list, but, you know, it’s, um, they’re certainly observant and kids are completely aware of what’s going on, and especially if they’re tuned into their bodies, they can really feel when something is, you know, right or not, right. Yeah, and I think that’s, that’s a really key skill that lots of adults sort of lose touch with as well. And so, you know, helping them with helping them get back in their bodies as well and working with adults have been rewarding as well.

Angelique
Yeah, definitely. Because I know a couple times when I start my workshops, how to talk to your kids. I start with how did you learn your relationships and they’ll give me like, the crooked head look of like, What are you talking about relationships. We’re here to talk about sex. I’m like, that’s part of sex. Is a healthy relationship if you don’t have a healthy relationship, how do you know you’re having great sex? Because then you’re not able to communicate or compromise or even give consent of what you want in your sex life

Lanae St.John
Yeah, and I mean, nine times, I don’t know what the percentage would be. But if you can’t talk to your partner about sex, you’re certainly gonna have a hard time talking to your kids about sex.

Angelique
Yeah, I love seeing those parents cringe and say, Hey, can you talk to my kid about it? I’m like, No, let me fix you first. So you could keep talking to your kids, because that is your job, not my job. I would love to take your money. But I you know, once I’m done, the kids are still gonna have answers and questions and things and you need to be the resource, not me. You know, I love outsourcing, but not that much.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, and I think it’s, I mean, certainly, adults need to have an outlet to be able to have these conversations, right. That’s a lot of what I do as well, helping parents sort of uncover, you know, why do they get so nervous about this? What were the messages they got when they were growing up? You know, one of the things we did in class yesterday with the college students is we talked about, you know, what are the common synonyms or, or what are the slang terms that people use for a female, vulva or vagina. And so my students came up with a long list and some of the words were words that their own parents used. Just because the you know, they were uncomfortable with saying vagina or they thought one student said that their mom thought the word vagina was too strong of a word and, I mean, you know, ear, hand, those are also parts of the body, but they’re not, you know, there’s no judgment around the use of that word to describe what’s going on. And, you know, if, if, if, God forbid, you know, a child is subjected to unwanted sexual contact, I would want my kids to be able to know the word anus or, you know, clitoris, or, you know, Lady or whatever the word is to be able to be specific to say, where they were touched or what happened in particular. Right.

Angelique
Exactly.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, it’s, it’s a, instead of having a more generic I, you know, I was touched down there. You never know if it was the belly button or, or where specifically. So you know that I’m an advocate for using the proper terms and really practicing using them. You know, parents who are young, or new parents, I should say, not necessarily young, but new parents sometimes are a little squeamish using the proper term, but it’s really it’s just a muscle to exercise.

Angelique
It’s definitely a way to help protect the children because studies have shown central perpetrators will not sexually abuse a child who knows the proper terms of their body.

John
less likely

Angelique
Less likely they’re because they know that their parents do talk to them about it openly versus a child who like a little girl would say, you know, your flower and I’m like, What the hell is a flower? You? Oh, it’s like it’s the vagina is the vulva. You know, we gotta, you know, protect our kids. You know, we’re all with Stranger Danger, but a lot of times it’s family members who abuse children.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah, absolutely. Right. You know, it kind of dovetails nicely into I’ll introduce the you mentioned the five building blocks to a healthy sexuality. I think when we were before we went on the air.

Angelique
Absolutely.

Lanae St.John
And those five building blocks were concepts that I came up with in studying about human sexuality. When I first went back to school, I started to see a pattern when we would talk about different whether it be sexual dysfunction or sexual concerns or, you know, talking to your partner or whatever. And I started to see this pattern that seemed to emerge. And so the five building blocks that I identified are communication, consent, respect, pleasure and fantasy, and communication. I mean, that includes using the correct terminology each. Each one of these building blocks has a number of sort of sub, like concepts underneath it. So communication, it’s not only the verbal of being able to communicate your needs, wants or desires or being able to listen to the same thing coming from your partner. You’re also communicating your own feelings and your emotions. And understanding that emotion is not a bad thing. You know that. That comes up also. I don’t know if you saw the documentary. The mask we live in or mask you live in by misrepresenting the representation Project the same people that did the documentary misrepresentation.

Angelique
No, I haven’t now I have to look into that.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, that that documentary is amazing. And it really it talks a little bit about toxic masculinity and and I mean, toxic masculinity is not saying that being masculine is a toxic thing. It has more to do with the messages that kids get specifically boys, but girls get these messages to about what it means to be male. In the movie, at least they talked about how harmful it is for a young boy to say B or to hear Be a man. Right? So that that is kind of loaded and that means they can’t cry and they can’t show emotion and they can’t be who they are. And and yeah, so you’d have to see that documentary. It’s amazing. But I go a little off topic on that. But emotion is not a bad thing, right?

Angelique
No, it isn’t.

Lanae St.John
And if you’re limiting men to only anger or excitement over their, you know, football team or sports team, or sex, you know, or to lust or whatever, that’s really limiting. You know, there’s a lot there’s a whole range of emotions that are more than just, you know, the few that we allow men and boys to to have. What else? Oh, body language, that’s another big piece of communication, right? Being able to tune into Yeah, somebody’s nonverbal language if I’m closed off, if you and I are interacting and or maybe even starting to become sexual and I freeze, you know, helping a person to talk that out, you know, I noticed you just got quiet, are you okay? You know, instead of just blazing through and doing whatever you want and, you know, possibly also violating someone’s consent because they they froze and they couldn’t, couldn’t speak up.

Angelique
Yeah, I think people often forget to check in with one another because we’re not taught that way. You know, it’s like slow down check in make sure you guys are on the same page, because oftentimes, I’ve seen that even at play parties and adults interacting, I’m like, wait a minute, I don’t think they’re comfortable with that. Oh, that’s okay. You know?

Lanae St.John
Wow. Oh, it absolutely happens in adult interactions.

John
I blame Hollywood. I’m going back to that thought

Angelique
Tell me more about that.

John
Yes, yes. Yeah.

Angelique
Well, please tell me

John
I will go off on that, because Hollywood is definitely pushed the idea of what a man should be going back to john wayne. They’re not crying, they’re not doing that. They always push, you know, the PG sex scenes, as all of a sudden, you know, it goes into a squiggly or a fade. Next thing, you know, they’re smoking cigarettes and everyone’s happy, kind of pushing that image of, well, that should just be natural. And if it doesn’t feel natural, then you’re just doing it wrong. Sex is something that needs to be learned. I mean sure you can figure it out and make a baby but I could figure out how to drive by watching Fast and Furious It doesn’t mean I’m gonna be a good driver. Exactly and we’re put society’s puts such shame on talking about the stuff and has such a control over it that you know we have podcasts like this and you know yourself that are now trying to fix a broken outlook on what should be raising a child.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree with you on the Fast and the Furious you it’s not a it’s not a good movie to learn how to drive. Is it?

John
No

Lanae St.John
Just like gassing up? When do they ever go to a gas station?

Angelique
No, no, I’m still trying to figure out the last I think it was seven where they’re jumping the car from one building to another. I’m like, come on. That is unrealistic. Right there.

John
Well, they had to I think it was Ludicrous, do like a catch up. If you’re watching the last one What happened? The previous one something like that. But even by movie five, it’s like okay, this is where the laws of physics should stop. And at least a bit yeah, they at least admit right out that okay, from here on out. This is not even close to reality cars don’t cars don’t fly.

Angelique
Yeah, it’s seven minutes of the last seven films of the fast and the furious so with. Wow, yeah. So literally in seven minutes he goes through

Lanae St.John
Sum them all up.

Angelique
Yep

Lanae St.John
Okay. Well, you know that that also, that brings up a good point. So the last building block is called fantasy, right? So without formal education and I’ll even admit that sometimes formal education in America is not the greatest around sexuality, right because not that many states require medically accurate education around sexuality but aside from that, what we observe about sex in movies or tv or, you know the porn that’s out there. If it’s not, you know, the good make love not porn type porn. Um, everything that we’re learning is someone else’s fantasy.

Angelique
Mm hmm.

Lanae St.John
You know, and you don’t get to see in traditional adult content or porn. When the camera stops, they move they change positions or whatever, and then they resume. There’s editing and you don’t get to see, you know, all that’s on the cutting room floor. So you’re just seeing someone else’s fantasy and you get to you get to explore only what you’re seeing. Right?

Angelique
Right. They don’t see the behind the scenes of like, I’m starving. I’m freezing. I had to, like poop everything out for the last three days and I have like 30 people see me naked here.

John
But it would be nice to even have a porn And I guess I don’t know. Could it be like reality TV porn? Or is it would it be TV, but you know, where you get on the bed and you nail your knee on the bed post, which does happen, or you get really into it. But you know what? I didn’t eat right today. So I don’t have interaction doesn’t mean I’m not excited. Or better yet, you know, you start getting into it and you start realizing, oh, I really should have cut my nails if we were going to do this earlier today. And so there’s so many incidents that happen in lovemaking that you really don’t get a summary of that until you’ve done it and then you just some people get upset you got to learn eventually to laugh at it and just move on.

Lanae St.John
Right? You know, the, the closest thing that I know of to real world sex is make love not porn. Do you know make love not porn?

Angelique
Cindy Gallup. I love her stuff everywhere.

Lanae St.John
So I’m not sure if they have sort of the, the outtakes, for example. Um, I’d be curious to know if if the, you know, bumping the knee on the bed or stubbing your toe, you know, if that kind of stuff is is in there

Angelique
that’s true because a lot of it is crowd sourcing on that website there Yeah, and I haven’t really purchased a lot of that stuff so yeah, that would be kind of interesting to find out there because she does promote but this is real world real sex. You know, this is what people of all shapes and sizes are having.

Lanae St.John
Right. And there are certainly if I’m not mistaken, there are couples that are like fan favorites now that have that have come up through make love not porn.

Angelique
Oh, that’s awesome.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, so So yeah, real world sex. Being able to see those those realistic situations. I’m sure that that’s in there as well. Yeah.

Angelique
Oh, I know.

John
I know going back to the building blocks.

Angelique
Yeah, no, we were joking around there.

John
So I know you kind of mentioned fantasy, but as far as being fantasy is a building block, you’re talking about the ability to fantasize or more?

Lanae St.John
Yeah. Well, certainly that is an aspect of it. The others, the sort of sub categories under fantasy is, you know, it’s important to maintain a childlike curiosity around sex, right? If you’ve ever watched little kids play, you know, they get so focused on what they’re doing. And you know that whether it’s fantasy or pretend or whatever they’re doing, they just they’re so focused on what they’re doing. And lots of times as adults, when adults start to play, they get distracted or they start thinking about, you know, the way they look or, you know what their partner’s thinking or they get easily distracted. So the fantasy piece that’s part of it being able to sort of like, just immerse yourself and forget about all the other, you know, database stuff that comes up, right? That’s one piece. The piece about sex. What Cindy Gallup says is porn has become de facto sex education. Right?

Angelique
Correct.

Lanae St.John
And being able to see that outside of any formal education, everything else is someone else’s fantasy, so it’s not real. And then then it’s okay to have fantasies and, and not every one of them has to be acted on or fulfilled.

Angelique
Write your own script.

Lanae St.John
Exactly. Write your own script, or talk about it and don’t do it. You know, just talk about the fantasy and see if it’s a, you know, see if it’s something that you or your partner want to try. Or if you just, you know, you’re not open to that either. So that’s being able to communicate about it.

John
A while ago, I had heard a phrase and I believe it was on swing set something about the the best lovers are the selfish lovers. And it’s not because they’re selfish. It’s because they can act like a child, they can push all that out. They’re not that insecure of again, what is my partner thinking? And they tend to have the most enjoyable, wildest, I think sex, because they’re not constantly worried about stuff and distractions, they aren’t getting back to that selfish child of this is my place.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, I can see that. I agree with that. And then another.

Angelique
Sorry, no, no, go ahead.

Lanae St.John
I was just gonna say there’s there’s one other piece to fantasy which, you know, we’ve talked a little bit about porn. But as it relates to talking to your kids, the approach that I took with my kids was to talk about things as I just mentioned, there are things you can’t unsee

Angelique
Yes.

Lanae St.John
And in talking to them about it, I wasn’t using any any porn or any specific example that had to do with adult content. What I mentioned to them from my perspective, were a couple things that I, you know, I have a very vivid picture of it in my head when I even talk about it or think about it, but you know, the movie alien.

John
Oh yeah

Lanae St.John
You know what scene I’m talking about? Where the, the alien jumps out of the guy’s stomach, right?

Angelique
Yeah, I usually think of the spaceball version where that the alien jumps out and start singing Hello, my darlin, to get rid of the alien original version.

Lanae St.John
That’s a better version. Certainly not as triggering or scary, but so yeah, so the alien scene and then Jaws, the first jaws that had me scared of the Ocean for a really long time.

John
It had a lot of people scared of the ocean.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, and it was. The interesting thing about it is you don’t actually see the shark bite her. You just see her get pulled into the water. Right? That was enough.

John
And your mind fills in the rest.

Lanae St.John
Oh yeah.

Angelique
Like Stephen King’s it’s in clowns.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, there you go. Yeah so so you know porn there are things you can’t unsee and having those conversations with my kids got it right away. I have to say I you know, I don’t know if it has more to do with the fact that we talk about this topic openly at the house or or they maybe they just don’t have an interest yet. But the things that I don’t have my kids going to the internet to, to look at porn. It could be I have a big library here. But I don’t have any issues with them going to the internet for porn. You know, I see more. You know, they’ll they’ll binge watch Disney, Disney series which I’m not a huge fan of, but, but yeah, those are the kind of also binge watch something on Netflix and and, yeah, I mean, it’s a different issue a different problem.

Angelique
It’s a totally different generation because I even, you know, roll my eyes at some of the stuff that they talk on Disney and I’m like thinking oh my god when Married with children came out and what Kelly Bundy was wearing is now considered acceptable and back then was considered like, ooh, taboo sleazy, scandalous. That’s like, how the Times have changed.

John
Well, yeah, it’s very funny with children. I do think this goes into adults that when you tell them don’t go in the cookie jar, that’s the only thing they think about. And when you tell someone you know, you go to any website, but don’t go to this website, well now that’s stuck in their head and that’s the one they want to go to. But one more one more quick thing because you did talk about Alien and how often do I get to talk sci-fi on a show like this? Ridley Scott, the director didn’t tell them what was going to happen. He told them to hold him down and go with the rest of the scene. So when you see that real look of surprise on their face when the prosthetic rips through his chest, that’s the spray of blood. That’s all genuine, because he wanted it to be surprised. And I’m sure after that, he got a mouthful. What the hell are you doing to us?

Lanae St.John
Yeah, no, that’s that’s another form of consent.

John
They were violated.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, I don’t know that I would have wanted to be an actor actress sitting there watching this thing come out of a person’s stomach and you have no idea it’s gonna happen. It’s not part of the script. Wow.

John
You know, I’m sure it’s it was one of those. Hey, the final project came out came out really well. Oh, really? You want to work with him again? Hell no. I was scared shit.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, we’ve we’ve come a long way. In terms of consent, at least I hope so I like to think we have. Maybe that doesn’t happen so much in in movies nowadays, but I could be completely wrong.

John
I think that’s one workplace exception where things that happen in movies and kind of just happen and you know, at least doesn’t happen in the workplace anymore.

Angelique
We hope. We hope.

John
Once in a while, I caught an episode of Madmen and thought, oh my god, people actually did these things. Who ever caught that show?

Lanae St.John
No. Yeah, I watched the whole series of somewhere in the middle there I either slept through the middle or or something. But yeah, I enjoyed the series.

John
Just looking at them again in the beginning first season. I’ve only seen a couple episodes somehow. I’m like, how did women ever want to get what a guy if they were acting like that? They were such asses. Yeah, they were also taught this is What a guy does, and this is what you should fall in love with.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, yeah. And, and certainly, I think I had a conversation with my mom recently about how, you know, if a, if a man said something that was ridiculous or, you know, just completely, you know, out of bounds or off the rocker, you know, she was taught to just sort of laugh it off. And I mean, it’s, some people certainly still do that, but I think a lot more people, at least a lot more of my acquaintances now are much more vocal and verbal about that. Yeah. Yeah. About when a situation like that pops up.

Angelique
No, I totally agree on that. Okay, so we covered communication, consent, fantasies, so yes, so now we need the other two pleasure and

Lanae St.John
Yeah, there couple things I wanted to add to consent to okay. So you have the importance of boundaries, right. Knowing what what works for you and and what doesn’t. But consent is also at least in in the book that I wrote the draft that I’ve done, or the manuscript, it’s finished, but I’m just working to try to find a publisher right now. You know, learning ownership for your own body embracing and exercising, the ability to say no. You know, another really important point in this is is being able to accept no for an answer. I mean, how many people’s kids shop parents for the Yes. You know, one parent says no, or says go ask your mom or your dad, you know, or go ask the other parent you know, it’s um

John
Oh, that never happens with us.

Angelique
Not with a 16 year old, never

Lanae St.John
helping helping kids to know when no is no, you know, and I think reading the house There’s a lot of really good work with that with you know when when you’re maybe you should just be a no right now there’s there’s a I know the cuddle parties also talk about you know maybe should be a no until you really know what it is you want to ask for as a yes or to accept as a yes. So that’s consent the third block is respect and respect is having a healthy respect for yourself and for others you know, having a healthy learning a healthy body image being okay with nakedness you know, body respect is a is a really important thing and and respecting other people’s bodies as well. So it’s it’s your you’re not how do I say this? Lots of times when we see bodies in advertising there objectified right?

Angelique
True

Lanae St.John
being okay with understanding what is object or understanding what objectification is and having a respect for another person. Let’s see what else sort of dovetailing with consent is is do no harm, right? Yeah, just this do no harm to anyone else and that goes with consent. And virginity. I included virginity or the concept of virginity, which I don’t actually like that term. I included that in the respect bullet point or building block as well. But I’d actually like to change the concept from virginity to sexual debut.

Angelique
Oh, that’s good I’d like that.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, there’s a couple reasons for it. One is some people didn’t get to choose their sexual debut due to unwanted sexual contact. Right?

Angelique
True.

Lanae St.John
Um, and then also, since virginity is tied to what penises do with vaginas, right, it’s its penis in vagina sex. That’s the definition of when you lose your virginity. There are people who will not lose their virginity because they’re not interested in heterosexual sex. So naming it as a sexual debut allows each person to define for themselves when they became sexual. And in what way, you know, some people might call it their first kiss. Some people might say, the first time they had an orgasm, some people might say it was just whatever way they wanted to find it for themselves. So the virginity piece, I think it was, I want to take away that word.

Angelique
No, I totally agree with you because a lot of times the kids go with the loophole poophole. It’s like hey, we have anal sex, It’s not really sex. We have oral sex is that really sex. I’m like, it’s still sex, your body is penetrated one way or another via toys via aatomy. You’re still having some form of penetration.

John
But even if it’s not penetration, it is two girls together. It’s still, you know, it would be losing their virginity. Even if it goes scientifically the hymen is still intact and there was no penetration.

Angelique
Right.

Lanae St.John
So a lot of people like to see the hymen as some sort of virginity, a freshness seal. And it’s, it’s not I mean, the hymen can break for a lot in a lot of different ways, right?

Angelique
Absolutely. There I think of some religious wackjob who created the virginity and the hymens kind of deal but it goes many, many thousands of years, I guess. I don’t know. Yeah, we got to find the history on that.

Lanae St.John
Well, and even today, you’ll hear of countries needing or wanting to institute some sort of virginity check I want to say this was somewhere recently on the other side of the ocean there were someone who was trying to do a virginity, impurity.

John
That’s awful.

Lanae St.John
Yeah.

Angelique
Yeah, I’m thinking it’s probably somewhere in the Middle East. But at the same time, I was thinking that sounds something like the South would do. I’m sorry, this Bible Belt, we’re crazy enough to do that shit. So

Lanae St.John
yeah, no, I heaven forbid that actually happened here, but or happened anywhere. But I want to say that was something like that going on recently.

Angelique
Yeah, well, yeah. Considering a lot of the crazy laws out there. Yes.

Lanae St.John
So the last bullet, or building block is about pleasure and lots of parents have a difficult time with this one because they, for whatever reason, a lot of what happens in our culture as it relates to pleasure. People think of it as sexual pleasure and I look at it more broadly in the simple power of human touch. Right? So, a hug, for example, I, I myself, I know that there have been times when I needed a hug, and that evoke tears and there been other times when I’ve been crying and getting a hug can sort of calm me down and calm my calm my nervous system down. So, pleasure is more than just sexual pleasure. I’m teaching that if there is any sexual pleasure that it should be there for both or all parties or whatever the case may be, however, many three some, more some whatever, even as it relates to talking to adults, right. And then pleasure is also self care. You know, what are the ways that you take time For your own pleasure, and what are those things? Is it reading a book, you know, talk to somebody recently who that’s like meditation for them, they love to sit down with, you know, a new book a week, and just hammer through and that’s that’s their self care.

John
There’s this. I think it’s strange association between pleasure and guilt. And a lot of people feel it. And it’s really weird because it makes complete sense that, you know, I don’t know an athlete plays a game, and he needs to heal that that’s physical. Everyone makes sense. And you know, after a long day, you need to decompress people say and relax or watch TV or some, but if you’re decompression, whatever is sexual. Now all of a sudden, you know, the shame on it that a lot of people feel is a lot to deal with.

Lanae St.John
Hmm, yeah. Yeah. And you you raise a good point with we advertise a lot of things like Miller time, right? Like, you deserve a break today or, you know, whatever these things are, we we’re telling people that they deserve to enjoy these things. But, you know, yeah, when it comes to sex, it’s a, there’s a lot it’s a lot more fraught with, with, you know, insert word here embarrassment, shame, guilt, pressure, coercion, you know, whatever the, whatever the word is, you know, we find ourselves in these situations where, you know, we just don’t really get to enjoy the thing that we really want to enjoy.

Angelique
No, that includes chocolate because they always say chocolate. It’s a guilty pleasure and like, seriously, it’s food. It makes me laugh.

Lanae St.John
Lost the signal there. You still there?

Angelique
Yeah, we’re still here.

Lanae St.John
Oh, hello. Oh, I didn’t hear. I didn’t hear any response to Okay. Oh, yeah. If I cut out or Oh,

John
We heard you you don’t hear for a moment, but I think we’re back and I’m just gonna blame it on a potential hurricane and the internet.

Angelique
Yeah. Yeah. No, I was talking about the guilty pleasures of chocolate. I mean, it’s food. It’s comfort. So pleasure. You know, it’s so weird how sometimes pleasure is associated with sex or pleasure It’s associated with food and guilt. So those are the two things that make you feel guilty, but I’m like, Why? We need some happiness in our lives.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, yeah. I’m in full agreement there. One daughter just came in to give me a kiss. I don’t know where she’s going. But Oh, yeah. Okay. All right. So, so yeah, so those were the five, the five building blocks, you know, as I hold on a second, next one. Sorry about that.

John
No worries

Lanae St.John
Got by tackled by a dog while I’m on the phone here but getting kisses

John
They’re important.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, they certainly are. It’s certainly a good form of pleasure. Um, you know, one of the things that I, I learned early on and in learning about talking to your kids about sex and things like that, when we talked whoops slamming the door,

Angelique
typical teenagers

Lanae St.John
Exactly. So, usually, you start with really basic concepts, and you start with the proper terms, you know, the, whatever terms you’re using, or hopefully, they’re the medical terms for the parts of the body. But you start with really basic things. And you add on, right. So, very similar to how you teach kids, the concepts of around math, right? When they’re really little, you’re actually playing with little blocks and lots of instances and you’re, you know, stacking them blocks or you’re, you know, one plus one you know, now you have two blocks, you start really simple. So as the kid gets older, as the child ages, you start to add more complex topics like then you start to talk about consent and and I feel like the building blocks that I have here are they’re complimentary to whether you’re learning about abstinence only education, which I’m you know, abstinence only before marriage sex education is not necessarily my favorite.

Angelique
No, neither us Yeah.

Lanae St.John
But if that’s where you’re oriented, you know, I certainly can work with that and help you. You know, help parents understand why these other concepts are really important. And you’ll notice that these building blocks really don’t have anything to do with what you know where penises go or what you know, you know, penises and vaginas or anything like that, but they really lay out a healthy foundation for you know, once you grow into your adult sexuality. What else?

John
I’m sorry, I’m just gonna say that that’s a really good point because as you were going through them with the communication, it Yes, it’s important for relationships, but it’s also important business and just in society, the communication. So all of these are building blocks that are just great for growing up for raising children, but they also definitely support being prepared having the outlook and the proper vocabulary and tools to have a proper sex life.

Lanae St.John
Mm hmm. And and even if you’re not being sexual, I think we were talking about this before we went on the air. You know, I took my kids to Burning Man this year. And Burning Man is a festival that most people think of it as like drugs, sex, debauchery, you know, hedonistic and just all kinds of crazy things. Unless you’ve actually been there, then you know what it’s about, but I took my kids this year and in preparation The theme camp that I was involved with, you know, said we want to make the kids feel welcome. But how do we, you know, there might be some areas that they wouldn’t want to go into, you know, how do we how do we mark those areas off? And I introduced that, you know, the idea of there are things you can’t unsee and the woman who I was talking to was, you know, she was like, yeah, that that makes total sense. And it’s, it applies to adults as well, you know, to alert an adult that, you know, up ahead, there might be something here that you can’t unsee so you might want to rethink whether you want to go ahead or not. So, giving people consent or giving people information about you know, what they could potentially be walking into, is really important for anyone.

Angelique
Oh, yeah, definitely. I think sometimes we kind of forget those things until after the fact it’s like oh, shit, I can’t unsee that I can’t you know, like, that should be like a meme or a poster. Just be prepared. You’re going to see stuff they can’t unsee.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I I personally don’t go see horror movies because I know it’s stuff that I can unseen

John
Yes, there’s a big reason I haven’t watched any of the Saw movies. I don’t want to.

Angelique
But yeah, we go to Halloween Horror Nights and they have the saw a haunted house. Come on, give me a break here.

Lanae St.John
Oh wow okay,

John
we’ve avoided

Lanae St.John
I saw the movie, I saw the first saw. And I actually walked out I just don’t have a stomach for it. But I know a lot of other people are. That’s, that’s, you know, they they love it and they can suspend disbelief and all that, but I just I really get, I really get pulled in.

John
You know, it’s funny because this is gonna go back probably 20 years. And I remember I was at a movie, I don’t remember which movie I just remember. It was violence. There was definitely death. And then I was on a date and it was an older couple. Probably in their 60s, maybe three four rows in front of us. It wasn’t a very crowded theater. And when it got to the romantic scene, the moment a breast popped out. I heard a grunt they both got up together and left And I thought how weird that was that like right before that but romantic scene, you know, there was literally someone getting shot in the head like, God Wish I remember which movie this was. And I’m like so all of that is okay. And that’s acceptable to you a boob popped out and you leave in protest and it just

Angelique
yeah, that goes yeah, that goes to like the Facebook policy you could show violence, blood guts and gore but anything that is breastfeeding sexual education. It’s banned. I’m like, seriously?

Lanae St.John
Yeah. Well think about how our country reacted to Janet Jackson’s nip slip in the Super Bowl. And even probably more recently was the incident where water polo player It was a woman female water polo player. In one of the most recent Olympics. I get home a few years ago now. But one opponent pulled on the swimsuit and the boob popped out, and Twitter reacted in two Two different ways you either had people with shock saying how dare they show this on TV? And you’re the other people saying I had no idea that you know water polo was so exciting and you’re gonna get both sides

Angelique
It was good get that mixed crowd.

Lanae St.John
I’m not a big fan of of violence and I’ve certainly watched movies with my kids that have you know, the more romantic situations I’m trying to think if there was one I’m not gonna be able to think of it before the end of the show. That was one featuring a relationship between a trans couple oh goodness I’m gonna look it up on on Netflix because it was a movie that we watch.

John
Okay. It may have been Census Eight

Angelique
Census a Census Eight No, I don’t think so not a series No, this is an actual movie. But since you say it, had it seems like that. Yeah. Okay.

Lanae St.John
So and, you know, it’s I don’t have any problem with seeing real, you know, bodies. I am I am. I’ve got more bothered by the violence and and yeah, where it’s unnecessary. It’s just it’s just. Yeah. I don’t know how to describe it. I’ve gotten a little more prudish, in that sense.

Angelique
Well, the violence definitely. Yeah.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, it’s interesting via the motion picture, rating, you know, the rating system that they have and that swearing and and sexual content gets such scrutiny, but blood and guts and gore and shooting and all that just doesn’t seem to it’s accepted. No, it’s really not even challenged.

Angelique
Yeah, no, they kind of like even to a certain extent. I’ve seen a couple movies, which I thought should have been like a rated R or even an NC 17 because of the blood guts and gore. But they kind of do like a PG 13. I’m like, how is that possible? That’s a little bit gruesome. But then you go back to when they started rating the video games, because that back in the day you could have been blowing up and there was no mature audience rating on the games and so yeah, seven eight year olds blowing up and blood and guts are what was it? That car?

John
Oh, Grand Theft

Angelique
Auto. Yeah. Where you got more points for killing a hooker

Lanae St.John
Yeah, you know, there’s a there’s a funny Daily Show bit or a segment when Jon Stewart was the host and I the comment or the or the topic was Moral Kombat. And it was a play on Mortal Kombat and it was talking about video game censoring and and the you know, you could have super violent games where somebody is eviscerated, you know, split from the legs up, and that’s okay. But if that character who was being, you know, split apart should happen to, you know, experience a nip slip, you know, then they would regulate it, you know. So, yeah, it’s, you know, going back to the fantasy, building block, whatever we’re seeing about sex when it’s not within, like a good education around sexuality. It’s somebody else’s fantasy. It’s just fantasy and making sure people know that, you know, it’s not real is, is you know, by an by an, by far the best thing you can do is tell people it’s just not real.

John
So true. So true. No, I got two quick stories that come to mind before this. I actually work at a school where we have a huge video game program. And I get a lot of video game information. And one of the interesting stories that came out, was there certain violent video games that were banned in Japan for violent content, and it was basically the ones Yes, like tearing out spines and all that, you know, zombie stuff that I will watch, but again, very violent. But we had watched a video game that was a women’s volleyball video game. And they completely the laws of physics stopped between just above their belly button in their neck, because the rest would just like they’d stop moving. And it would be another 10 seconds of the brush just moving around. And I’m like, they’re not Cagle balls. They don’t have balls inside balls that they keep, but that was completely okay. So in Japan, it was like that turnaround of they had this truly fantasy boob fest volleyball game, but then banned the violence. So we’re going yea that. That didn’t go very well over here.

Lanae St.John
Well, yeah, I mean, if you think of people who are actually playing volleyball, usually there’s a sports bra that’s gonna hold things, you know, pretty close to the body.

John
It has to be I mean, you can get injured with big enough breast and certain athletic events

Angelique
Yeah, we’ve seen that actually. That’s the scary part. We’re like, Oh, is that even possible, but we just saw it. Yep.

Lanae St.John
Yeah, yeah It’s possible

John
But as you were going through all of the five building blocks and all that, one thing that that came up on another show we did was, you know, if you go to your doctor and you talk about having a man having issues or someone owning a penis having issues, they’re like, they classify it under you know, sexual performance and that is a term I’m really uncomfortable with because when I think of performance, I think of the circus get up on stage and juggle I’m like, yeah, sack your set. It should be your sexual pleasure your sexual enjoyment your event that that sounds so much better my sexual performance is like the end of it. Do I take a bow? And like, you know, expect the car to go up one to 10 like at the Olympics?

Lanae St.John
And then and then your partner gets to rate you.

John
Oh, that could be demoralizing.

Lanae St.John
Exactly. No, I agree with you on calling anything a performance? Plenty of couples that I’ve worked with have had issues with spectatoring right where you where you’re not in the moment or in the act, really, your head is not in it. You’re just you’re, it’s almost like you’re watching from three feet above. Right like being a spectator in your own Sexual interaction. It’s not, you know, it’s lots of time. I mean, that can lead to issues with you know, not being in the moment and, and judging yourself or, you know, am I doing this right or am I there’s a lot of things that come up to spectator, right. Yeah. And and looking at at sexual behaviors as a performance is not where I would want to go.

Angelique
Yeah, because you don’t get the popcorn and the fun cotton candy stuff there.

That’s what it’s all about performance, you know, candy popcorn, you know,

John
you get all the stress and pressure.

Angelique
Yeah, you do. But you know, then that’s definitely another fetish fantasy right there that would go in into

John
We’re not going there tonight.

Angelique
Okay, it’s all about the kids. But this has been so much fun and thank you very much for agreeing to be on the show. I appreciate it very, very much. There. Because Yeah, you’re definitely my role model. Because half the time I’m just like, oh, like, I gotta try this. And I do try a lot of the things you talk about on your blog and your social media, with our child, and it’s worked out very well with her. And yeah, the whole open conversation about sex. I know, john, sometimes it’s like, lalalala, that’s a little bit too much because she is very

John
well, she is very vocal about it. And I very much do want to know, it’s, you need to when you say you can talk about anything, you have to be prepared to talk about anything. So when your daughter looks at you in the eye, just on the couch one day and you know, you’re just sipping your soda, she goes, you know Daddy, I I don’t think I like the taste to cum. And you just have to stop and go. Okay, well, yeah, and, again, if you want to be a sex positive parent, you have to not freak out. Like a sex positive parent.

Lanae St.John
Yeah. Certainly kids are gonna try to see what your reaction is,

Angelique
oh, they love pushing those boundaries.

John
That’s their job

Lanae St.John
Boundaries and that could be a, you know, it could be a good lesson to say, you know, boy, my parents didn’t talk to me Well, you know, didn’t didn’t talk with me as openly and so sometimes I find myself I find myself getting shocked or you know, whatever the reaction is, so bear with me as I catch my breath here. You know, the case may be, but yeah, acknowledging it and being real is is what’s been working really well for me with my kids.

Angelique
So, so how can our listeners find you?

Lanae St.John
Sure. So my website is the mamasutra.net, .net not .com. or you can find me on Facebook as the mama sutra. I have a fan page on there and people reach out to me through messaging. There also Twitter. I would say for the most part Lately, I’ve been on Facebook most often, but you can find me really on any of these social media outlets, Instagram as well. I’m just getting ready to post some pictures from Burning Man that that we had out there. And yeah by email if you want to email me it’s mama sutra at me .com and it’s MaMaSutra@me.com.

Angelique
Awesome. Well, thanks for joining us this evening. You could find me everywhere on social media at living a sex positive life. I’d like to thank our sponsor, The Wood Shed Orlando here our local dungeon in Orlando who always have educational workshops.

John
And if you’d like to reach me, i’m john C. Luna on Facebook on Twitter on fetlife. drop me a line and say hi,

Angelique
thanks. Have a good night everyone.

Lanae St.John
Bye. Thank you. Good night.

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