Sex Positive Me

E80: Coffee Talk with Amy Taylor

Listen to “E80: Coffee Talk with Amy Taylor” on Spreaker.

Curious to know what is a companion? Some people may think of Inara of Firefly who dressed up and went to celebrate parties. It is more than that. It is paying attention to a partner needs and desires. Sometimes it is not sexual. It could be emotional, could be something physical such as being held in a non-sexual way. SHOCKING! I know!


Click here for Part 2 | Click here for Part 3

Listen to our conversation with Amy Taylor, a companion for over 20 years. We enjoyed our time together talking about how the landscape of being a companion and how the sex worker industry has changed during her career. What we can do to help improve the sex workers right to work in a safe environment on their own terms. What the upcoming 2020 election will mean for sex workers and politicians.

Amy Taylor is the most exclusive and private modes based in the United States. An MBA, a commercial pilot, a several-time cover model on Playboy, Maxim, FHM, and has been published inside Esquire, GQ, Sports Illustrated. When she is not in front of the camera, she’s enjoying the sunny skies flying, keeping fit at her gym in Los Angeles, or at the beach playing with her dog.

You find her at the follow:
www.AmyTaylor.com
Instagram.com/AmyTaylorLA
Twitter.com/AmyTaylor1
Facebook.com/AmyTaylorInLA

If you are looking to help support sex workers to have a safe working environment contact your local elected officials.

Here is where you Contact Your Elected Officials
https://www.usa.gov/elected-officials

 

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Click here to view the full transcript

Amberly Rothfield
On living a sex positive life we explore all aspects of human sexuality. We talk about the good and the bad the health and healing benefits, the adventures and the relationships as well as the crimes and the tragedies. We strive to be an advocate and empowering force in the fight for sexual freedom. Our mission is to educate, entertain, and talk about the touchy subject that affects us all. sex. Now, here’s your host, Angelique Luna.

Angelique
Hey everyone this is Angelique and I’m here with my co host tattoo future model husband tech guy and all that and

John
John C. Luna and my titles keep changing every show every week, but it just means we’re really busy and very creative.

Angelique
So of course because mine is just simple certified kink educator, entertainer.

John
Tantra practitioner

Angelique
and spiritual worker

John
and coach,

Angelique
Coach,

John
yeah, we do too many.

Angelique
So we have a fun, fun guest today. I am so happy that Miss Amy Taylor reached out to us. How are you?

Amy Taylor
Great. How are you guys doing?

Angelique
Good. Tell us about your whole resume things because I’m reading I’m like, I’m not gonna do any justice. I know she’ll do better.

Amy Taylor
Uh, yeah, I’m a jack of all trades, master of none. Right. So, um, yeah, I’ve done some stuff. If you follow my Instagram, I’ve done some modeling been on the cover of lots of stuff. maximums and FHMs and Playboy’s been inside Sports Illustrated plastered my half naked self all over and then come in lots of stuff. You can feel that on video social media. And, and I did that part time always while going to school. So yeah, I went to undergrad I studied science and undergrad. found out I didn’t really like working in science and then I went to business school got a graduate degree, that was helpful. But the core i found being freelance on my own was much more fun than being a corporate person after trying the corporate world once didn’t really like it. So and then I was flying planes for a hobby while I was working in the corporate world found that I really loved that. So I decided to get a bunch more pilot’s licenses, commercial licenses, instructor licenses, couple type ratings. And so I also fly planes and I teach people to fly plane which is really fun. It’s worlds beautiful from above, you don’t be don’t see the problems you just see the beauty so I think that’s probably why I like that. And so yeah, so do lots of stuff. And then all of that stuff is fueled by my main consistent gave, which is that I am the companion to a small group of wealthy men who want to date and want to share life together and do not mind providing for us The women that they care about so what I do

Angelique
well every time I hear the word companion out I met on my app automatically think Firefly a Naira?

John
Yes

Angelique
that’s what I think what people say companion because that’s what she did and she always went to all these fancy parties so I’m guessing it might be similar that you get to go to these nice parties and events or just quiet night at the fireplace eating food.

Amy Taylor
Yeah, sure I’m some of the stuff is fancy.

Because it’s real fancy. I will miss. I will miss it when it ends. You have to remind yourself that that’s their world, not mine. Not fancy it could be like Netflix and ordering Shake Shack or pizza, you know? Postmates while these gentlemen are wealthy that I’ve known over the many years, they they often live normally to they just want to like I said Netflix and pizza. But sure there’s there’s the Yeah, I think the private jet stuff is the part I’m gonna miss the most that’s really nice. It’s a neat peek into their world. It’s not that their lives are problem free, but the, the, they don’t have the problem of lack of luxury, let’s say. So that part of me that’s probably I think the world is probably fascinated with companionship because of that. You’re basically talking about good looking women and wealthy men and who is not fascinated by either of those things. Because you’re peering into their world and maybe that’s fascinating for me to peer into their world. It probably is. Sure. But their lives are not problem free. They just their lives aren’t perfect, despite what maybe people would think if they’re envious or fascinated. But yeah, parties sure lead gala is opening nights of opera ballet and museums, restaurants, sporting events. Yeah, you go to that stuff. Sure. It’s fun. It’s fun.

Angelique
See yourself like also part therapists too, because you’re listening to them also cuddling them holding them because I know there’s professional cuddlers because some people miss.

Amy Taylor
Yes. Oh, I think that’s a professional cuddling thing is fascinating. Like, I’ve seen some Yes, I mean, okay, so we can talk about the human touch. And yeah, people go straight for like, sexual stuff, you know, strippers, lap dances and all that stuff. Great. Sure people need that too. But yeah, you’d be surprised like, what a back scratch can do for a person who’s got a migraine and a lot of stress from running a bunch of companies like and, and listening and our world is so distracted. Now. I think I’m probably in the business is just listening a lot because nobody listens to anybody anymore. And how sad it is. People will pay for that. There’s maybe something’s wrong with the world that people are so desperate to be seen and heard. And yes, therapists, I, you know, I’m not qualified for that I’m not a doctor, I’m in no position to do that professionally. But again, just seeing somebody and paying attention them can do wonders for someone’s soul. Sometimes, ironically, some of the ones I’ve known for over a decade are therapists, to me, when I have problems, their relationships are absolutely real, even in the confines, that either party has the right to leave whenever they want, and that we are not going to run away together. And that there is the requirement that they help support me what they’re really just doing is liberating my time so that I’m available on their schedule, because if I had a bunch of jobs, our schedules would never match. That’s what they’re paying for. Um, but yes, therapy for sure. I I think it’s I think you’re right, that is part therapy. I think it’s also part art and by art, I mean, you’re sticking your neck out and doing something creative and vulnerable, and somebody is going to like it, and somebody else is really not going to. That’s what I mean by art. I don’t mean painting or sculpting. But I view it as kind of an art and there’s people that respond to it, are inert evangelic Lee into it, and it sort of saves them and they love it. Those are usually my clients and my colleagues. And then there’s people who really vehemently detest it. And I think a lot of art is like that, right? It’s like your podcast, you put your neck out there and sometimes get your head chopped off and sometimes, you know, right, that’s what big vulnerable is. And I think it’s really inherently human. to want to connect and to to stick your neck out in that way. This is the way in which I do it. I find it very satisfying. And a handful of other people do and a lot more do not.

John
Well, I think we specifically America has a Such a bizarre view on sex, where it’s pushed into our face constantly. We’re constantly showing it on TV on ads, I went to subway, there’s a Budweiser ad of a woman in a bikini and a waterfall. It’s there everywhere. And then when you actually want it, you want the intimacy, you want that stuff, you are told, you have to find one person, they need to satisfy everything. And if you don’t, you don’t get it. That’s why most people end up cheating. They start with that great concept of that and then can’t quite hold up to that, that, that high level. Now in other countries, I know, specifically European countries. Liking sex is not something to be shameful about. It’s very open. Politicians have mistresses in the open because, hey, they’ve hit that status. You know, they don’t have a lot of free time or whatever the situation is, and it’s not hidden and pushed on their table and thought as shameful. It’s just accepted that We’re humans. And this is what we are instead of some religious people what we should be.

Amy Taylor
I absolutely agree with you. I think it’s it’s tenuous, right? Because for that politician in that example, does his wife like it? Maybe in some cases, she’s fine with it. Maybe in some cases, she’s only tolerating it because she has to. And so if you think about morality, I think the only morality is sort of consent, right, do no harm if possible. And the hard thing is to assert your needs without infringing upon the needs of another. The idea so this monogamy thing we’ve set up which is very good for raising children. It’s going to subjugate someone means like you said, I use it to find one person and that’s going to meet all your sexual needs. You’re both going to want sex at the same time. In the same way. You’re both going to want to fuck each other for like 30 years, even though it’s the same and never want anybody new. And so what are you Do thank you because they don’t like the same kink you like, right? You. You like anal and they hated or you like BDSM and they hated or, you know, they got the wrong safe word that the turnoff for you, I mean a million different things. It’s ludicrous to think that somebody, you know, is going to be that compatible. That’s ludicrous, right? It’s gonna be that perfect all the time. And so what do couples do, right? Some people swing, some people, they get in fights, and then they make up and that kind of drives some passion. Many people cheat. People sometimes get divorced and marry a new person. And then it’s new for a while again, you get all those chemicals again. I’ve stayed single, because I’m terrified of the whole thing. I don’t know how sustainable that’ll be. We’ll see going forward. It’s, yeah, I mean, but on the other hand, pair bonding, at least for a while is good for raising offspring. There’s plenty of data on that to build We’re sort of having this fantasy of permanent bonding. It is great for offspring that need a lot of care and human babies do. Right? They need a lot of care for many, many years before they’re ready to survive. So you, you see the same thing in birds, right? They pair bond and they raise these eggs. They get it, but there’s all kinds of shenanigans that go on with birds too. There’s tons of cheating. There’s tons of I mean, they’re very much like us. And there’s, you know, but so maybe, Dan Savage coined a term called monogamish with us, which I thought was really genius. You guys, I assume this is your best friend, right? Your partner in life you guys are. Right, but sometimes you want to fuck somebody new, right?

John
Yes we do.

Amy Taylor
I mean, I like pizza, but I don’t like pizza every day for the rest of my life. Right? I mean, and that’s fine. And it doesn’t mean you You’re leaving, it doesn’t mean this isn’t your person, your, Hey, hold my hand idiot, we’re going to do life together. You can have both, but we’re just not ready to talk about that. And obviously, it’s fear based. Because the idea that you fuck somebody else, you might actually like that person better. And then you might leave. And everyone’s afraid of abandonment, right? We’re all human, We’re all afraid of being abandoned. And good sex can sometimes lead you to think you might rather be with that other person, not just for sex, but for life. And that’s very scary to a person that loves you and doesn’t want to be abandoned. So I understand what people are afraid of. But I don’t think that hiding our heads in the sand and creating entire society to pull up, like you said, lives that we like sex, but we’re terrified of it. And we criminalize some forms of it and socially reward other forms that I don’t think this is working. It’s creating a lot of misery. Um, I think there’s got to be a better way and you reference some European countries and I think some countries are navigating that space in wiser ways. And we could we could take a hint, perhaps in this country, some people are waking up to that. Maybe

John
we’re hoping we are seeing more of the rise of polyamory a lot, as well as open relationships. But just going back, we like to relate a lot of things to food. I’m Italian, everything gets related to food. I had to tell someone I said, Okay, you imagine instead of marrying someone and only being able to have sex with that one person, imagine only being able to eat the foods that you both like. So if they don’t like apple pie, and you love apple pie, you’re married apple pies off the table.

Angelique
Yep.

John
And everyone said hell no.

Amy Taylor
Yes of course, are only being able to eat when they’re hungry. Oh, you can only have any food when you’re both hungry. Yeah, you’re hungry. They’re not you starve. Good luck. We’ll have that How long is that gonna last. And I believe that sex for some people is just a real physical need. It’s not always about love and intimacy it can be. But some people just want to get off and then go to work and start their day and they feel more ready to tackle the world or they want to get off before they fall asleep. Or sometimes it’s not sometimes this is physical of a need a thirst or hunger and to deny somebody that I think is cruel. I think it’s really cruel. I mean, in Holland, they give vouchers to some of the physically disabled people to be able to visit sex workers because they understand that those people have less access to sexual partners, and that it is a human need. And giving them access to some of the girls in the red light area is a way for them to receive human touch, sexual and non sexual. They view it as sort of a Yeah, a humanity issue. And it would be they think it would be insane to deny people that like That’s so evolved compared to how we are in this country.

Angelique
Oh, absolutely. And so in Holland sex work is very widely acceptable. Like you said, there’s a red light district for that. And so how is that you know, different from over here especially when it comes to activism?

Amy Taylor
So I’m what I know a little bit about. So right it’s decriminalized there it’s not without its problem. It is an industry and it’s got labor issues just like any other industry. So there are bad actors. There are abusers there are like men who run the little red light district departments and if you don’t do what they want they up your rent or evict you and you they use their leverage to either get sex or get money or there’s bad actors like there are in the clothing business and in agriculture and in tech companies. Right. So but but they address these as labor issues, which I think is the correct way to address them. They don’t criminalize it and drive it underground and let bad actors have even more power which is what happens when you criminalize something there’s no way for workers to go after bad actors because they’re petrified of of having problems with law enforcement or legality themselves. So they let the abuses run wild with the that’s what happens always happens in the drugs with the drugs and it happens with when prohibition when we tried that in America. So criminalization does not work. We already we already know that. So they address it differently, but they continue to have problems. Australia not every province Hey, sorry not every district in Australia has decriminalized it but the one we’re Sydney is have that. New South Wales Queensland Forgive me. I’ve forgotten the name but i think it’s Queensland

Angelique
Yeah, Queensland

John
Queensland yeah. Can’t be for sure we’ll be there next year

Amy Taylor
Oh, I’m jealous. Are you going?

Angelique
Yes, we’re going for a wedding and one of our friends is getting married. .

Amy Taylor
Oh yeah Have fun. Take pictures. I’m jealous. But yeah, so they’ve done it and they do they continue to have sort of labor issues as Canada but but they’re at least trying to address it and they’re realizing that criminalization just makes everything worse. So, the problem is, as we were talking about in the beginning is norm enforcement, the psychological leap it takes to view something as a real industry when it hasn’t been is very difficult, right? We’d have a long struggle to become legal it’s still not there federally in this country. There’s, you know, I think these these things take a lot of time for the culture shift. And I sex is a very special thing in America, whether as you touched on it because of religion or just general discomfort. I think we could get there but some people find it real hard. I don’t know. I’ll ever live to see it, right? Even. Even polyamory and open relationships. I mean, I’m sure you’ve experienced that you have to be careful who you tell right when you meet them, right?

Angelique
Yeah, absolutely. So we’re going to take a quick break, and then we’ll continue on with this sex work activism and more. So

John
be right back.

Angelique
Hey, john, I want to get a new toy.

John
Okay, so let’s go to fairavilla.

Angelique
But I don’t want to waste time trying to find out what goes with what?

John
Well, there’s fairavilla university and their staff is very well educated and helpful.

Angelique
Okay. But how about if I just want to go to a party instead?

John
then go to their website because on their calendar, they list all their events,

Angelique
but I don’t want to spend a lot of money.

John
Have you heard of the loyalty program?

Angelique
Oh, yeah, that thing on my key chain that makes everyone blush every time they see it?

John
That’s the one.

Angelique
Let’s go.

John
Well, they have over five locations in Central Florida. Which one do you want to go to?

Angelique
Fairavilla for fun, pleasure and fantasy

Thanks, everyone, we’re back here with Amy Taylor. Now we’re gonna be talking about sex work activism, which is kind of interesting how you were saying in Holland that they were having labor laws when it comes to sex work, which I found out a couple years ago, only in the United States, we different sex work and labor laws completely different. While the rest of the world does have sex work under labor laws.

John
Well, they also put together sex work and sex trafficking. It’s all the same to them. Which means if you’re, you know, kidnapped, underage and forced to do something they treat it no differently than if you’re a full grown adult conducting your own business providing a service which is obviously not just physically but emotionally needed.

Angelique
And consensual versus trafficking.

Amy Taylor
Yeah, well, so if we’re going to talk about coercion, everyone is coerced to do their job because everybody does their job because they will like food and shelter, right? People like money. So, but when the job is sex, it takes a special place, right? So it’s, it’s intersectional also it relates to the idea that women sort of get fucked and that when women have sex, they can’t possibly be wanting it because women are sort of saintly creatures that, you know, if they have sex, it’s that they give it and reluctantly because we’re these little delicate flowers. And, and if you’re sort of a woman who has agency in flux when she wants, who she wants, how she wants, for the reason she wants, that you’re some sort of weird nymphomaniac, witch harlot and she’d be burned at the stake and you’re a weirdo and like, Look, let me tell you, every girl had a whore phase. Like every woman who then becomes a saint and delivers babies and becomes a mom and is going to take her kids preschool and then big PTA presence. She fucked a dude on spring break in the bathroom when she was 20 years younger? Everybody did it. But we don’t tell. I mean, we don’t tell our husbands because there’s a certain fear of the hoe, the woman who fucks who behaves like a man right in whether in power grabbing ways she wants to work, she wants to make money, or she wants to fuck like a man. There’s a real fear of. And I think it speaks to gender fluidity the same way we have a fear of men who have feminine traits, right? What’s wrong with that guy who wants to wear some makeup or wear a skirt or heels? What’s wrong with that woman who wants to fuck around and be a player? That’s for men? That’s not for girls to do, right? What’s wrong with that woman who wants money? Why doesn’t she just go and stay home and let her man earn and provide for her right? There’s, I think it speaks to gender norms and we are really uncomfortable with that would upset the applecart societies are easier to govern and control if we know what to expect and So yeah, you have women running around doing what we want? Well, we got to burn them because that can’t happen. Right? You guys, you can’t. I mean,

John
it threatens the toxic masculinity that’s out there, which was a weird term when it first came out. Sorry, go ahead.

Amy Taylor
No, I agree with you and also toxic femininity, that women have to be a certain way and that only certain types of women are acceptable. I think gender roles are all toxic. Do what you want, fuck who you want, wear what you want? But that would be then we’d have to be a lot more tolerant. Right. And people are scared of that. I don’t know what’s so scary. But it is to people right? When we see something weird, we don’t like it, right? We just see what is that? And

John
I’m sorry.

Amy Taylor
No, please.

John
We’ve heard the rise of the term feminist feminist porn feminists and before I started getting educated, all this, my thought was what I think of a feminist because it was on the news. And my, you know, your parents told you which was a very angry lesbian. And, you know, that was the classic and still so many Americans hear that. And nowadays, you know, once you get past that it has nothing to do with putting down men. It’s not men hating dikes. It’s just women having power and and you know, still people are threatened by that.

Amy Taylor
Yeah, I had a client who said if women have their own money, what will they need us men for? And that just about broke my heart. Oh. Well, and does he really think no, women don’t like him. He’s lovely and funny and brilliant and cute. And I wanted to grab him and say there’s so much else you bring to the table besides all money and yeah, you have that and that’s cool. But if you if you lost it all tomorrow, you would still be brilliant and funny and nice and interesting. And women would still like you don’t Don’t worry. And women still want Nick. Don’t worry. We get horny too we still want your penis’s. Maybe we don’t want all the pictures. And when we didn’t ask but but right I mean, it’s as usual it’s fear base. It’s always fear base. It’s, it’s that I know this world, maybe I don’t like it but it’s the world I know. And it’s safer than trying to get to know a new world, right? I’m sure. Have you ever met people when you told them that you had an open relationship? They got really freaked out

Angelique
all the time. Yeah, yeah, open relationship swinger, bisexuality, kink. I mean, the whole nine yards goes into it. It’s just like, I kind of look at them. And I’m like, what’s wrong? It’s not like we’re going to convert you. I am not going to be like that.

John
You know, we don’t recruit.

Angelique
Yeah, we don’t recruit knocking on the door. It’s like, Hey, have you met my fate and follower, you know, we show a picture of, you know, what would you call it?

John
a gimp?

Angelique
No, a cock. You know, a rooster cock. It’s like, here is our Savior. It’s like there is your cock pic. Right there. A nice little rooster.

Amy Taylor
Well, and did you when they get so uncomfortable? Did you feel the fear? You can feel it right? You’re very afraid. And don’t you they’re often afraid of their own fascination, their own interests, their own little unique and dark side of I wish I could do that. I want to do that. But I’m scared to let the dam break. And so maybe if I just don’t ever do it, and I instant hate that I’ll be safer, right?

Angelique
Oh, exactly. But even in that term, we also teach parents how to talk to their kids about sex. And that question of like, hey, why don’t I pay you to talk to my child? I’m like, No, let’s help you because you’re having some issues, even communicating to your partner about sex. So you’re really uncomfortable about sex? What’s going to make a child come up to you and talk about it when they could smell it from you that you’re like, Nope, I’m scared. I’m not going to talk about this. So it starts at all ages.

Amy Taylor
Well, there’s a lot of trauma about sex that people have from their own childhoods, whatever weird stuff they’ve been through. A lot of families got the creepy uncle kind of thing. There’s a lot of trauma and a lot of families and we’re not talking about that stuff, either. why people are so uncomfortable about sex? Why are they? I think it’s because of a lot of what’s happened to people and they’ve been through it’s more common than anyone’s admitting. That said, right, then kids are learning about sex from porn. And then sexual activists and activists are being seen as some kind of deviant. Yeah, like I said, which is when everyone’s having sex, you want everyone out there? Fuck it right? It’s something everyone does. And yet we’re very weird about it. And though, we put it in this weird box because of fear, and that causes more damage, like when kids aren’t being their parents aren’t talking to them about how to have healthy sex. And, you know, I’ve known people that they’ve no skill, a ton of fear. They’re wondering why they’ve got a miserable sex life was because nobody ever, the information was never out there hoping people like you guys are changing that. But we have to get a lot more honest because they are afraid of what the cost of telling the truth is. And I am afraid of what the cost of lies are. Right? Because we’re stigma we’re paying a really high cost for our desire to lie about sex on every level. We’re paying really hard costs us activism, you know, we’re watching when they pass them fossa. There are people in sex work that died because of that, when they shut down their their sites where they could communicate about who was a murderer. And they shut down their places where they could communicate with each other. They went back onto the streets because that was the way they could buy food that night. And some of them died. Now maybe nobody cares. But you know, there are real consequences to to lies. If you’re if it’s worth it to inform social norms, if it’s worth the cost of life, which I’m terrified that for some people it’s worth because sex workers are disposable victims and fuck them anyway, let them all die. Well, that’s, I mean, a world I can’t really reconcile because these are human beings, right? Oh, also, they’re, they’re overlapping with your husbands and wives. So, you know, the system is not a closed system. So the some of the data on transgender street workers, street based sex workers, HIV rates, some of them are very high, and they all have customers. And so there’s a lot of overlap with your your husband who’s coming home. So perhaps you want perhaps you want to lie less and get honest more because it might save the life it might save might be your own actually.

John
While you’re out in California, and I know your state is proudly one of the leaders in the Fight to legalize sex work as I understand it

decriminalize it

Angelique
Decriminalize it there’s no legalized yet what decriminalizing so careful with the verbiage. Sorry, I’m very into that.

Amy Taylor
No, no, I agree there’s it’s an important discriminate. It’s an important differentiation between those two words, which a lot of people think are sort of the same. decriminalization, right? legalization comes with a lot of red tape and a lot of sex work. sex workers don’t want that, because it would probably look like the brothel model. And in the brothel model. There’s a lot of it’s right for abuses. So a lot of most sex workers would prefer decriminalization to legalization. I think both would probably be better than what we have now. But that’s subject for debate within and without the community. But right in California, we haven’t measured on the ballot for the Cal dems to support we are trying to at least make some headway that sex, sex workers when when arrested, they cannot use the possession of condoms, as evidence. Which is what they do now. And the reason we don’t want that is because what happens is then sex workers particularly like street based ones, they do not use condoms because they don’t want to have them on their person. And, and then that increases disease transmission. And so for the protection of communities, you don’t want to punish people for trying to be safe, even in the corporate world. Back to what you’re talking about. This is the world that you wish was the utopia and then there’s the world that is, and we think that laws should work with the world that is, so we’ll see about the ballot, but it’s an effort. Some other states Rhode Island is doing a study on what it would look like to decriminalize sex work. New York has a couple of bills to try to one of them is to go back and erase the records of sex workers that have been convicted because we find out that when you get convicted of that crime, it becomes virtually impossible to work in the normal world. You suffer a lot of discrimination. And so guess what you just created a person who’s gonna Stay in this world

John
There’s no way out

Amy Taylor
No, of course not. Once you can’t get, you can’t rent, you can’t get a job, you’re branded sort of a sex criminal. And we’ve talked about how uncomfortable Americans are with sex, you are going to be provided basically. So your life is gonna be very difficult. And so what are you probably going to do, you’re probably just going to stay in sex work and try to survive that way. So if you want to, if you really want to minimize the harm done by sex work, then you have to address that issue. So we’ll see what happens in the state of New York. So I’m proud of them for being so progressive. And and at least trying so a couple of presidential candidates potentially have come out saying that we should really look at decriminalization as a real solution. We’ve got, as we talked about other countries that have got some pretty smart methods and different ways to maybe do it better. So we might be getting there. I don’t know one other hand, Florida has gone backwards. They want to put Yeah, no other cracks. They’re making it worse than ever. They’re putting pictures in the paper of if you’ve even been arrested, which I can’t believe that’s legal because we’re supposed to have a presumption of innocence in this country, innocent until proven guilty.

Angelique
Yeah, we know the Polk County Sheriff. He’s like, one county away from us? So yeah,

Amy Taylor
he’s right you? Oh, boy. Well, I mean, you put somebody’s picture in the paper, you’ve really ruined their life for a while, at least. And that I can’t I think it’s shameful to do that to somebody before they’ve had the opportunity for trial. And I get what they’re doing. They’re using shame and stigma to think that they will mold behavior into the behaviors that they want. And not only will they not be able to do that, but the harms they’ll be causing will not be worth it. But this is norm enforcement, right? This is just this is you know,

John
but they’ve been throughout history. It’s been proven wrong prohibition. You know, that just led to a rise in crime until they got rid of that they legalized Colorado. I commend them for the first one to legalize marijuana, and they’re still having problems with with money issues because they can’t deposit their money into a federal account because federally. Again, drug trade is still illegal. So, yeah, they’re still having problems

Angelique
It’s a cash only because even the credit card companies cannot accept the transactions because they’re under federal umbrellas.

Amy Taylor
So everything that must make it right for them to get robbed, if they’ve got all the cash and horrible things that happen as a result of that.

Angelique
Right.

John
So if they find out their presumption is wrong, and the legalization will actually do good things because they do have a great education system. Now, out in Colorado, they’ve gotten so many millions more than that. Then they go ahead and twist other laws to make sure you know, to make it as difficult as possible for that. Now, I actually talked with some Some older Fox News watching people. And it was really hysterical because I asked them, you know what they think about Colorado and they’re like, Oh my god, the crime has gone up. And it everything they said is what you would want to hear if you had their point of view and nothing was the truth. And I’m like, wait a minute.

Amy Taylor
Where did they hear this?

Angelique
Fox News

Amy Taylor
Fox. Yeah, sure. Korea log come into suburban Cleveland. Watch. Hide your grandkid, grandpa.

John
Yeah. And it’s those fear lies that these stations use to put it in the heads of the people who are subset susceptible already that caused basically fear mongering and ratings for them.

Amy Taylor
Well, think about it. If you’ve had a system that was entrenched for your hegemony and your power, and you’ve lived that way for 75 years and things have been pretty damn good for you. Why would you want change,

John
change is hard, change is scary,

Amy Taylor
you would not want it. You want things to end if you’re really old now and you don’t recognize the world around you, and it looks weird. And there’s all these young people doing the Snapchat and there’s weed smoking in Colorado and you’re becoming less and less relevant and you’re sitting at home just getting angrier and you don’t feel physically good and you’re not getting laid anymore. You, you probably crave a time gone by, right? I mean, I’m probably going to crave the past and a few decades, I’m probably getting there. I’m going to miss the old and so that inherent conservatism conserving the past is, I think it’s from a longing for the past and when maybe life was more fun for you as you head toward death, and also a desire to keep things in place that were set up to make your life nice, right?

John
Yeah,

Amy Taylor
I think, yeah, it’s a Gemini right. Why you wouldn’t want change. I think I’m surprised how many men are threatened by women wanting to have our own money, that they think that that’s going to really What do they think they’re not going to get sex anymore? They’re still going to, it’s gonna be fine.

John
They need more confidence

Angelique
Well, no, because it’s always dynamic in time that it’s always sex and money. That’s what man has power, sex and money.

Amy Taylor
Well, and I think I have girlfriends who are really threatened by these guys now that don’t really want to get married. We have a lot of men in LA, who are like, Hey, I can have kids when I’m 70. I’m going to get married when I’m 60. And, you know, can you blame him? Why Why not have a bunch of fun for a long time, everybody’s living to be 100. You don’t need to get married at 18 anymore. Like, that’s why that’s why plural marriage and polyamory is so popular because now you get married and you stay married for 50 – 60 years. That’s too long. Right? It was used to be that married.

John
A little story. Have you heard of the villages?

Amy Taylor
Lorna?

John
Yes, it is a town slash retirement community. Very large. It’s somewhere between Orlando and Gainesville, and a few years ago, it came out that there was an STD outbreak. Because when you’re 70 you’re really not worried about something that’s gonna kill you in 20 – 30 years, you know, and they had to have people come in and start teaching safe sex practices, because people who haven’t had sex in years go to a community now they’re socializing with people their age, they’re widows, they’re grandfathers, and yet grandpa and grandma are having some fun,

Amy Taylor
and you don’t wear condoms because nobody’s getting pregnant. Right?

Angelique
I know unexpected old grandpa.

Amy Taylor
Yeah that’s hilarious. Did they get a handle on it? Or grandma grandpa getting gonorrhea now?

John
Partially taken care of. It’s

Angelique
it’s almost there. Yeah, not totally but yeah, we just kind of laugh and giggle we’re like Yep, even old people have sex,

John
well, when you remove all that social worry that they don’t have to act Like they’re expected they don’t have to. They’re actually not with their families so they don’t have this role to be well we revert to having fun for ourselves.

Amy Taylor
That’s very interesting. So sort of conservative behavior is not inherent to them either maybe they’re doing it because of what society expects of them as well.

I never thought about that. Good for them. I hope they’re all having orgies. Get it, Grandpa, Grandma get get to some

John
In about 40 years. I know my future. So we’re gonna take a quick break, and then we’re gonna be back to talk a little bit more.

Angelique
Hey, honey, do you know those new toys I wanted to try out?

John
Yes.

Angelique
The ones that you say that cost me way too much money to have.

John
Oh, yes.

Angelique
But I just found this new service called Kingcrate.com

John
Sounds interesting.

Angelique
Yeah. And for $50 a month, they send you a box of toys that are worth anywhere from 75 to $100. And it’s like great starter kit like you know that roleplay we wanted to try or your favorite medical play? So why don’t we just go check it out

John
I’ve heard if you go to living a sexpositivelife.com’s sponsor page, they can get you an additional 33% off.

Angelique
I see it’s such a steal babe Come on 33% off our first box, please.

Alright, and we’re back now we’re talking our favorite subject stigma. Yay,

John
Because we’re never stigmatized

Angelique
Oh yeah, no bisexual male never. How much discrimination have we’ve gone through baby?

John
Well, for me, the men that I date tell me to just wake up deal with my own feelings and divorce my wife because that’s the more fun side and other people literally the straight people basically say but you’re married like the but I’m still bisexual, but you’re married. like okay, whatever. It’s just you know, just because you like something when you get married doesn’t mean you don’t like it. Some people choose monogamy and choose not to participate in While others, you know, choose to go ahead and have an open marriage and explore it, but the fact that that want would disappear. It is interesting to say the least.

Amy Taylor
They can’t compute when they keep going, but you’re married like they can’t get there. No, you can’t see. Wow,

John
you got to remember Florida is right on the Bible, right in the shining buckle of the Bible Belt. So

Amy Taylor
no, I mean, you said it. I don’t. Yeah, I mean, we have it here too. I mean, pockets of no state is all is all one way, right? No, no. Can I ask, did you always know that? You’re different? I mean, at puberty or whenever you started having sexual desires. Did you know that you were different than what people talked about as being the mainstream? And how was that it so

John
I’ll say from the time I bought my first playboy and snuck it in my bag and brought it home and looked at in my room, I knew I was a pervert. I knew that right off the bat, I love sex and I was you know, 13 and but growing up, I grew up in an all boys Catholic, Catholic Grammar School, and then an all boys Catholic High School. So the concept of being bisexual really wasn’t even an option for me at that point. And since I don’t even think about it, there was there was gay. And we had a few of those. A very small I’m talking about out of like, 400 maybe two. And then there was the rest of us.

Amy Taylor
And you had more they were just lying, but yeah,

Angelique
exactly.

John
Probably.

Amy Taylor
And for you, did you find it your bi? Because I mean, women are gorgeous. Who? What woman doesn’t like women there we’re stunning with it. Have you suffered? Like, I have people or do you just say this is who I am and

Angelique
my first marriage was abusive marriage. So my ex husband did not accept it when I told them he locked me in the closet for a day, hopefully to get it out of me. So, yeah, seriously

Amy Taylor
Jesus. Yeah, I’m glad that’s an ex

Angelique
Yeah, that’s an act. So yeah. And that’s why after that I decided to stay single for 10 years. So I was single for a long time, because I’m like, if you can’t accept the bisexuality, and don’t be expecting me to do like a little puppet show, like, automatically go make out with a girl and have me like, no, it’s like, I know what I want, but I’m not going to do it on demand. And it’s like, but I just I felt bad because in the news recently, these two lesbian women got beat up in London for the same thing that they just like, they wouldn’t perform on comand. Yeah.

Amy Taylor
It must be really nice to have each other as a sort of anchor in the sea, in the country, in your state. Yeah, I envy that because I I have my couple of friends. But I don’t have a spouse I would love someday, hopefully soon to find somebody to spend the rest of my years with, that can be okay with who I am. And as it fades in the past who I have been, as I become something else, I worry that I never find it because, right the stigma thing you can see it doesn’t get to you, but it does. Because your choice to either lie, and then you’re having to live in the closet. You know, the LGBT community knows how that was, it doesn’t work. It’s gonna come out in other ways. Or to try to tell the truth and suffer. I’ve lost friends. My family didn’t speak to me for two years when I got outed. We talk now but they don’t support it. So we just kind of don’t talk about it. They’re never gonna get there. I love them. They love me. It is what it is.

John
That’s the best you can hope for some days

Amy Taylor
I’m luckier than some. I mean, look, a lot of sex work starts from a teenager teenagers coming out of the closet and getting kicked out of their home and they end up on the streets and they have no other way to feed themselves other than to engage in sex work. So, again, these things are intersectional we see in sex work, a lot of it starts with the family being unable to accept the teen for who they really are. And, and it’s shameful, and it causes death and mayhem and all that just because people can’t get there. It’s painful to live in a world of stigma. It causes you know, you can only tell the world so often that you don’t care what they think of you. It’s a lie. Of course you do. We all do. And I see in sex work girls internalizing it that trauma and having low self esteem. There’s plenty of academic data on this what it does to people and just to trauma and even rescue workers, they further the trauma when they try to save because then you’re telling somebody they need saving right? Instead of you could tell people they have agency I’m happy being polyamorous. I’ve heard them say and polyamorous couples that one is doing it for the other two. Try to keep them happy. And I think that’s so dismissive and so fucked up. Right, that you couldn’t possibly have agency and be okay with your choices as a person, right? Because many of us are. Okay. Don’t tell me what’s not okay for me, right? So but it’s so hard.

Angelique
Yeah. And usually what we, I think, a lot of couples that we coach, it’s like, there is no set, you know, formula, it’s whatever works for you, and whatever is acceptable, and that’s what you need to work with. And that’s how you get rid of a lot of stigma, because you’re not going to be the same as Paul and Mary, when you have jack, Jill and Jerry all together. So

Amy Taylor
yeah, there’s a lot of Yeah, polyamory is not a monolith. Right? There’s different Yeah, I’ve heard it’s incredibly diverse within right.

Angelique
So many layers because even in polyamory, some people are swingers, some people are into BDSM. Some people are into power exchange. There’s so many different layers. In the kink community of how to make the relationship work, which is like a big stigma, because they’re just like, but it’s supposed to be like this A, B, and C, and I’m like, no, it could be A through Z and more. It all depends on how you work it and how you do it. Because polyamory is relationships based on emotions doesn’t necessarily have to be physical, because I know someone who has 13 polyamory partners there, and a couple of them are not sexual. They’re just emotional connection.

Amy Taylor
Oh, that sort of makes it easily as intimate, right? It’s, yeah, I think this, I think polyamory and BDSM have a lot to teach about the past sex work activism would like to be on in fighting stigma. Because these are polyamory and BDSM are so very evolved about consent, right? There’s a willingness because you have to be When you’re asking somebody, here’s myself, This is what I want. Do you like me? You have to get very clear on consent, certainly BDSM right, you’re caning somebody, you better understand what’s cool, what’s not cool. And I think they are at the very edge of getting more honest. Via consent. And via You know, I’ve been to dungeons and it’s wonderful that you talk about your hard limits and your soft limits. And I wish that could sort of happen in a lot of areas of life. Right?

Angelique
Yeah.

Amy Taylor
And with the knowledge that they can change, you can want something different. Yeah. And they sort of, I don’t know how the BDSM community did it where they just jumped out of the box and said, Hey, this is that maybe they because they don’t have the legal fight. So they’re able to,

John
we do but we can, because I’m very heavy into into BDSM, impactfully, Firefly, stuff like that. And the stuff we do is inherently dangerous in some aspects of it. And there was a case up in Ohio where a nosy neighbor called the police because they heard, you know, ruckus next door, the cops came, the wife answered the door, the husband behind her and said, Oh, no, we were just having the scene, you know, he bruised my butt and flogged me or whatever. And they said, okay, and arrested him. Because they’re in Ohio at that time, there, you cannot consent to being hit.

Angelique
There’s several states like that, that have that law, you cannot consent to being hit.

Amy Taylor
So they don’t believe it’s real consent, or

John
no, no,

Angelique
It doesn’t matter

John
Even if you consent. They believe you consent it. It’s not. Mm hmm. And it’s laws like that, that I know are in some states not not a lot, thankfully. But we’ve had to become very apprised of the law that when I go traveling, I go on vacation somewhere. What I have to curdle, curtail what I do, because it may not be legal in that state now.

Amy Taylor
Right. Wow. Cannot consent to being hit. I don’t understand how that law got okay. I would I have to read about that because that seems insane. Yes. Tonight that denies people their agency, much like in sex work assuming all especially female sex workers are all victims. It denies infanticide, infantilizes and desires the Spanky or the caney. I’ve asked to be caned, I like I knew exactly what I was asking for. I’ve caned other people. They knew what they wanted. Right? I mean, I reject that completely that you cannot consent to being hit that

what’s wrong is that that law is off the books now, I hope?

Angelique
No, it’s in the process of being looked at and reviewed because the National Coalition of sexual freedom, that’s what they do as an organization, they look to fight laws like that to have a lot more consent and also have a written law of what Consent is because it’s different from state to state to so they’re trying to make it to a national. This is what it is. This is what it says.

Amy Taylor
Good. Well, I hope they I hope they keep up the fight. Yeah. See, that’s so strange that people can’t see that somebody might like something different than you. Why is it so hard for us as humans? Why do we judge so much like this?

John
So we make things bipolar, just like our government does. It’s right or wrong. It’s this way. And there’s so many levels of gray. Not that I’m quoting that book ever.

Amy Taylor
That was, it was badly written, just badly written notice probably why it was so popular because it was like a third grade reading level. But I watched the movie. I really liked the movie. It was terrible, but they were both gorgeous. So I didn’t mind I didn’t mind just looking at them because they’re both super hot. Why not? When not my Citizen Kane, you lightweight?

Angelique
Well, I got kicked out of the movie theater because I was laughing so hard.

Amy Taylor
Oh, nice cuz it was obviously rubbish, right? The dialogue alone.

Angelique
Oh yeah, like, oh, everything else like are you kidding me this is like it should be classified as a comedy romance movie now.

Amy Taylor
Right? Yeah, right, rubbish. But that’s the race to the bottom and entertainment writing that’s probably why it appealed to the masses because it was so it was so like a milk toast right?

John
As much as i hate it It’s open the conversation. So when people yeah when people see that I have a Flogger on my wall. Or I have a picture of me and I’m in a kilt in a top hat, and I’m flogging someone. It’s no longer God, what are you doing? They’re like, okay, you’re into that.

Amy Taylor
I guarantee a lot of women are like, Hey, what’s that?

And men what you know, and yeah, but that I I’ve met men over the years who are very bi-curious and they’re so stuck in What you coined earlier toxic masculinity that they, some of them pitifully, will never go ahead and let themselves live and enjoy that because they can’t get there. And they’re still in a box that that’s not. They shouldn’t and it’s unavailable to them. And I find that heartbreaking, because you know, sexual desires fluid, we all know that it is for most almost all animals, including us. And it’s only these defined gender roles that don’t let that happen. Sigma right. And particularly for men who’d like to explore bisexuality, I think women are more permitted. Right? We are. It’s more and more. Yeah. And I find that really shameful, right, because I’ve seen and known a lot of men are still living in the closet about all that stuff. And I think it’s terrible. I think, stigma I don’t know if I’m a moral relativist, obviously. And I just wish people could could in Enjoy the diversity of human experience and human desire. But they don’t seem to quite be able to they want to just, they want what is easy to understand. And I find that such a boring world, right it would be It’s so boring when everything when there’s a lack of diversity. I don’t. But we have the dark side which likes to judge, right. I hate that sex workers are sort of these disposable being victims. I hate that killing hookers is a joke. I you know, the CDC estimates there’s 1 million sex workers in the US at any given time. So that’s what one out of every hundred and 50 women are. So that’s a lot of people. So most people call me know a sex worker even if they don’t know it. And it’s not funny to talk about killing them. Because you know, like it did. You know, women might want to fuck on their own terms, and that women might be saintly and virginal enough. It’s not funny to talk about killing people for that?

John
No, of course not. And actually, it wasn’t until we’ve interviewed a few call girls, that the police came up and they talked about their experiences in dealing with the police. How, because they’re dressed this way, because they’re doing this, they’re immediately dismissed, they’re immediately not believed. And when they go ahead and report a rape, we know someone who was arrested for it, because they came at her saying, Well, why were you there? Why didn’t you know this guy, all this stuff and turn the blame on her, not the rapist. And that’s so backwards.

Amy Taylor
with fear based Also, if you can say that she brought it on herself, then you can say it wouldn’t happen to me, because I don’t women do that. When you are a victim of rape. A lot of women, your own friends, your own colleagues will start saying well what did you do and the read what they’re trying to do is feel safer in their own mind that You did something that caused this, then I another woman, I’m safe because I wouldn’t do that. And therefore what happened to her won’t happen to me. So it’s sort of a very animal thing of attacking your own attacking the weak wolf in the in the pack, because then it won’t happen to me, right? It’s disgusting.

Angelique
And what gets me aggravated also with that because our daughter is survivor sex abuse survivor and when we were at the child advocacy office, I saw a seven year old girl being ripped apart with those same words by her grandmother, and we’re in Florida and he’s hot as hell here and she was wearing a tank top and shorts. And her grandmother said because you wore that is because that that’s what happened to you that you were sexually abused because of that. She was seven years old. She cannot buy her own clothes. It is hot here. So that’s where I kind of when I hear that with women saying that to other women. I’m like, No, you always say that to everybody because That girl was only seven. And she was sexually assaulted being in the hot Florida weather wearing the same exact outfit an adult was wearing.

Amy Taylor
You should be able to wear whatever you want. And people should still control their debt, their genitals and not rape you. If you walk down the street naked, you’re still not supposed to be raped. And her grandmother learned that somebody told her grandmother that right? So this is what her grandmother believes. And it comes from a place of love. She’s trying to help that seven year old cover yourself up and you’ll be safe. But it’s but it’s wrong. And it’s painful.

Angelique
Yeah,

Amy Taylor
but the grandmas trying to use the only knowledge she has, which is if you you know cover yourself, you’ll be safe, right? But this is not the world. I don’t think that’s the world we want to live in. And I was hoping progressive society was moving toward a world where could have more pluralism, more diversity, more tolerance. You could see somebody live a lifestyle different from your own. You could be like, okay, that’s cool. Maybe I don’t want to do that. But I don’t care. But I don’t know if we’re moving that way. Seems frightening to me that we might be going the other way. I mean, we’ll see, I guess. I think activism has to remain because you have to hold the line, right? You have to hold the line. I don’t want to go back in the closet. Like, I don’t want it to be the 1960s where everybody had to drink a bottle of wine just to get through the day, because you could never be yourself. I don’t I don’t want that world. I don’t think anybody does, I hope.

Angelique
I don’t think so. are some ways that you know, regular vanillas or people who are not in sex work can participate and be an activist for sex workers?

Amy Taylor
Thank you. Well, if you’re in one of these states that’s got research studies or ballots on the measure. You can find your local legislator and call their office and ask them to support these bills. Finding your local legislator. It’s just a matter of googling like your zip code and find your legislator and there’s websites that will tell you who your person is. calling their office is better than sending letters and emails. You just say I’m calling and I’m a, I’m a resident of this, this your district, and I’m asking you to support this bill. You can also get involved with SW op, sex workers outreach project, there are chapters all over the world. And they often have a lot of things going on. If people want to get involved. And you can beak out, you can unclog it, you can go ahead and say that you support decriminalization or legalization. If you do or get involved in the discussion. We still have free speech for now. So you can, yeah. So you know, just going ahead and talking about it. You know, a lot of sex workers are on social media get to know them. They get pictures of their kids and their dogs and their yoga and they’re human beings. Like, I guarantee you probably love somebody who is or has been a sex worker so you can get involved just by speaking out and right and getting to know the humanity of the different types of lifestyles that are out there. Because that will curb some of your own trepidation and you Your own fear. And and you might find that when you share more love and less fear, the world gets really beautiful. It really I promise you it really does fear is never ever the way it isn’t. So yeah, look on line, I would suggest talking to the slop. You can just google SW OP and where you are, you’ll find a chapter. Everybody there on the old Instagram and Twitter, you know?

Angelique
Just have a look for them.

John
And speaking Yeah. If people wanted to follow you on Instagram and Twitter, you’re out there as well?

Amy Taylor
Thanks. Yeah, come say hi. It’s at Amy Taylor one. I couldn’t get to Amy Taylor. I don’t know who has. That’s my Twitter, Amy Taylor one. And I’m also on Instagram, Amy Taylor LA, because that’s where I live. So yeah, come say hi. I’m around.

John
Very cool.

Angelique
Awesome. Well, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate that. Thanks for coming.

Amy Taylor
It was an honor. Thank you. Keep doing what you guys are doing. It’s really it’s it’s Beautiful that you have this podcast, sharing your lifestyle the stories need to be told the humanity you’re bringing. It’s important.

Angelique
Thank you everyone for listening to our show tonight. You can find us on our webpage livingasexpositivelife.com on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, on the sex positive life while you follow all our stories and adventures. You can find me on all social media as Miss Angelique Luna

John
and you can find me on Facebook and Twitter as john C. Luna. please reach out and let us know how we’re doing.

Angelique
please like share all our contents leave your opinions, comments, complaints, we accept it all. But we also like to thank our sponsor the woodshed, you can find them on their web page the woodshedOrlando.com, and they’re also on fetlife and Facebook, where you could see a lot of their events and promotions going on.

John
So thank you very much for joining tonight.

Angelique
Thank you Have a good night, everyone.

Amy Taylor
Bye bye

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